how did they do it? real estate podcast with aileen prak and tommy brant
Aileen Prak: Welcome to today’s episode of the How Did They Do It? Real Estate Podcast. I’m your host Aileen Prak and today our guest is Tommy Brant and he is a “recovering electrical engineer, and data scientist turned full time real estate investor” and he helps busy professionals accelerate their wealth through passively investing in real estate. He started TB Capital Group as a tool to buy real estate with family, friends, and partners. He has a fantastic story, fantastic lessons learned through some deals that he was able to participate, lead and at the same time walk away from which is also important to discuss as well because sometimes the best deals that you do are the ones that you end up not doing. I’m super excited to have this conversation with you today, Tommy! Welcome to the show, and how are you doing?
Tommy Brant: Thank you so much, Aileen. I’m wonderful. I’ve listened to a couple of your episodes before I came on and you have interviewed some super stars in this space and so, I’m really just honored and humbled to be able to contribute to your listeners here.
Aileen Prak: Absolutely! Thank you so much for that, Tommy. So let’s start off by if you can share a little bit more about your background, where you come from and also how did you get started with real estate.
Tommy Brant: Sure! The origin story, sure, I’ll dive into that. Tommy Brant – TB Capital Group here based out of Nashville. I’ve been here for 13 years since I’ve graduated from Georgia Tech as Electric Engineer. Full time in real estate for 13 months now, going on 14 months. And it’s been a wild ride to transition from engineer to full time real estate investor. Going further back into 2006, I’m a sophomore in college, and I’m working for a friend’s dad who’s a general contractor, and he kind of forced me into becoming handy. We had a lot of oddball projects. It was a blast. It’s one of the funnest jobs I’ve had growing up. And then we also had a contract with someone that hundreds, if not thousands of mobile homes throughout Middle Georgia. And so we made a lot of them rent ready. So this is in middle Georgia at the time, and about 15% of the demographic we were servicing was post eviction. So we’d come into these places and there’s just trash thrown everywhere. There’s used diapers in a corner. There’s hypodermic needles in another corner. The utilities have been cut off for two weeks, and there’s food all in the fridge.
And you’re looking at your friend like, who’s gonna clean up the fridge? Not it, not me.
Aileen Prak: This is where the mask comes in handy.
Tommy Brant: For sure! It’s like, I gotta go, you know, I’m vacuuming the bedrooms now you gotta clean the kitchen. And so that did two things for me. One, it built a lot of character. So just value of hard work. And two, it gave me the ability to see past the clutter. The ability to have vision in the final product. And so if you fast forward, graduated college, I’m three years outta college, saved up some earnings as an engineer salary. And 2011 I bought my first investment property.
It was a short sale back when those were a thing in 2011, and my realtor thought it was crazy. I found a house and I didn’t see the clutter up front, I saw the vision. I was like, this house is gonna be great when it’s done. And my realtor’s like, you know, the pool is solid black. There’s a bulge over in the garage where the ceiling is just, it’s been leaked on because there’s a hole in the roof and every square inch needed to be updated.
And she was just like, let me show you some other houses first before we commit to this. And so she shoved me into five other open houses and stuff. I was like, oh, you know, these are okay. These are neat, but it’s missing this other thing that this house has, or it’s missing this other thing. And so fast forward, we closed on that house.
I bought it. I rented a bedroom out to a colleague and then it was a slow live and flip and it was very slow. But over the next eight years, my roommate was paying the mortgage while I was saving up for a big project. So one big project would be redoing all the flooring in one year. I was rotating around in the bedrooms as I was repainting and redoing the flooring and all of ’em saved up for a kitchen one year while hardscaping in the backyard next year.
I loved demolition, knocking some of the pool houses, had no foundation. So getting to knock those over was probably the highlight of what I was doing.
Aileen Prak: So you’re doing all this on your own?
Tommy Brant: Most of it. There was some stuff that I contracted out. I got burned out really severely, as you can imagine, on and off.
And after a while I just started hiring contractors for like the last three or four years. But I think we had ordered and filled up seven dumpsters worth of stuff as we were going through all the rehab and renovation and so pretty wild overall, but yeah, within the first summer, we had the pool up and running and we could actually see the bottom. It was clear water. And anyways, I’m digressing a little bit.
Aileen Prak: Did you get that house on a discount based off ofthe original features of the house that you’re looking at, and the caving in kind of roofs in the pool area? So were you able to get it at a good price?
Tommy Brant: So with it being a short sale, that’s basically it’s owned by a bank, and the bank is like, I’ll sell it to you for this much, I don’t care how much we make or lose. When I was looking at it, it was around 100 was the purchase price on that one. So just an even buck thousand. And then two contracts canceled. Like, they fell through ahead of me. And then by the time I put in my offer, they raised the price to 125, but everything else was priced high, one hundreds or low two hundreds on the street. So buying the cheapest house on the street, there’s definitely a discount there. And then within a couple of years this is 2011, right? So the market is on its way back up. And so by 2013, I think it appreciated just by the city evaluation to over $200,000. And so just by me holding it for two years, substantial appreciation in the asset.
Aileen Prak: Oh, nice. Very good.
Tommy Brant: That was just a lot of sweat equity and just kind of stumbling into things and just doing what I knew at the time. And then 2020 was when we decided to sell the property, and that was when I had to really get educated and knowing how to take control of my financial destiny. And so found the little purple book. Rich dad, poor dad. I feel like I was just so late to coming across that rich literature in there.
And then, Shortly thereafter came across bigger pockets, how to analyze deals, how to analyze markets, how to be a landlord, how to build a team remotely. And the decision for me was, do I want to invest in my backyard or do I want to invest in small multifamily? Because I would’ve loved to start with a quadplex or triplex or something like that.
And I decided that I wanted to try to self-manage and so, but there was a lot of small multi inventory and so I started with single family homes despite a couple town homes, and within a six month time period, I bought three town homes. And I kind of took a pause at that and then I was like, let me just reassess everything here, because Brandon Turner told me, just get started.
So I just got started. Am I on the trajectory for the goals that I want based on my timeframe. And the answer was no. What I was missing was the scalability, and so the conclusion I drew was I need more doors and less driveways. So that led me to a small mult-family, to commercial multifamily, to mid-size apartment complex.
And then after that, just discovering the fact that syndication exists. And so all along the way, I mean we’re talking about a long time period here, after I’m getting some success in real estate and like how can I align with what I’m doing your 12 hours a day with taking control of my financial freedom.
As an engineer, I work for an electrical distribution manufacturer. I made a bunch of big unsexy gray boxes that deliver power to and fro, hospitals and data centers and stuff like that. It’s a very critical infrastructure, but I don’t see where real estate kind of plays with that. And so I talk to my team lead, is there any way I can work part-time so I can go to more meetups or some of these lunches that I usually end up working through? And there really wasn’t a good option for me. And so my wife and I, we just made sure we were capitalized and we’re really just taking that big leap here, so she still works full-time.
We don’t have kids, and my risk profile looks a lot different than a single parent with four mouths to feed, right? But this is just something where we leaned really hard into it. Within the first year, we invested passively in 350 units. Within short order, we’ll be adding to that portfolio and in a co-GP manner.
And so pretty excited for what the future holds. So starting to get some traction based off of the activity that we’re putting into this business.
Aileen Prak: Oh, fantastic. Then I like that you guys were able to look in and really determine what your goals were and before going down a certain path as you got started, did your education, built up your knowledge, based your foundation, and then decided.
As you were going through the processes and building up that portfolio, deciding to pivot into something else very similar, but going down a different pathway to be able to get to that financial freedom and that lifestyle that you’re looking for.
Tommy Brant: For sure, for sure. Yeah, and part of it was, The fact that drew me to syndication was that a lot of it had aligned with the skills that I had developed professionally. 12 years of being an engineer, some support roles, mostly sales, mostly customer facing. That just kind of drew me to either finding deals or funding deals or managing the business plan. And that kind of steered me towards a little bit of the funding deals.
And then with my partner that we’ve been doing direct to seller since the turn of the year. And so we’re kind of got the finding deals and the funding deals managed and we can both manage the asset. We’re both very detail oriented and timeline driven. And so we’re excited for what the future holds for small to mid-size assets and hopefully graduating to the larger size assets as well.
Aileen Prak: So let’s jump over to that 52 unit deal. So this was a deal that you were on track to purchase, and you are going to close on it with the intent of managing it and doing the whole business plan for it. But you ended up walking away from this property, so, give us a little bit of the backstory as to, how did you find this property? What are some of the things that you did and you looked at that made it a good property, and then what made you walk away in the end? For sure. Yeah. So some of the backstory here is my strength in market, being in Nashville is definitely Middle Tennessee.
Tommy Brant: And so I’ve been focused kind of like, there’s a shotgun approach in the sniper approach, and we had a sniper approach with one of the brokers. And so we had just developed a really close relationship with very few brokers. We didn’t try to get on a bunch of people’s email list. We just tried to add as much value to one or two brokers in particular.
And so, all that had apparently come to something because around like month eight or month nine of me being full-time in this space, we finally get our first pocket listing and we’re like, okay, this is nice. So it comes in on Sunday, my partner and I are looking at it, underwriting it. On Monday we had a call with the broker to talk about the up and comings with the market. What did they see happening? And all of it was very encouraging.
Aileen Prak: Can we jump really quick? Can you just touch base on pocket listing? Because some of our listeners might not be familiar with that term.
Tommy Brant: For sure, for sure. Yeah. And so I think in today’s environment, everybody would call everything an off market deal, right? Even if it is truly marketed to a wide audience and then it could be marketed to a small audience. If it’s marketed to a wide audience, I would say that’s just marketed, but still off market. If it’s marketed to a small audience, say a list of like 10 people or so, I would consider that to be a pocket listing. Where it’s just like they don’t want a lot of people knowing about this transaction happening and they just want their close. They don’t want anybody that’s gonna be a pain in the butt potentially to be involved in this transaction. So they’re just giving it out to their closest friends that are involved in this space that they know, like this type of asset and like this type of market. And so we were on that shortlist of 10 people that got wind of this deal.
Aileen Prak: Awesome. Thank you.
Tommy Brant: For sure, for sure. And so after that, I guess Tuesday we brought in some of our other like heavy hitter partners that were gonna play different roles. So we brought in balance sheet to sign on for the loan.
We brought on experience and we brought on asset management within like the Tuesday to Wednesday time period. And Friday was whenever we submitted our lLOI and Saturday it was signed and executed and so within a week, we had taken the property from underwriting to forming the team to being under contract, and that was like the fastest I’ve ever moved.
And I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I wasn’t networking all the time in my space and full-time in this space. Like if I was just dabbling in commercial real estate, I would’ve had no idea what to do and like what? It would take something like that down. And so, that was just a crazy whirlwind of an experience there.
Aileen Prak: When you looked at the property, what was the draw to that property and what was some of the things that made it a good opportunity in your eyes to be able to submit and get that LOI out there?
Tommy Brant: So the property itself, it fit a lot of what we were looking for in terms of true value add multifamily. I think there’s even a lot of brokers that will say, Hey, this is a value add opportunity, but there’s really just not a lot of juice left to squeeze to justify the purchase price. The other thing that we really liked about it, was that the purchase price was reasonable.
You know, we had kissed a lot of frogs and we’d seen a lot of trash come across our desk from other brokers, and they’re like, Hey, you know, it’s a great opportunity. It’s like, yeah, but it’s priced about 20% higher than it needs to be like for, for my investors. And so, yeah, the purchase price was great.
And then there was. Just, just based on the debt at the time, right? There was a lot that we could make work, and then there’s other debt products that would just make it a screaming good deal that we were considering exploring at the time too. So the neighborhood as well. I’m not gonna invest in a crappy part of town.
Forgive my French there, Aileen. But it was in a path of progress and it was just really a lot, it checked a lot of the boxes of what we were looking for in an asset in Middle Tennessee.
Aileen Prak: Can you share what the purchase price was and did you guys offer the full price of it or did you guys get close to what was the expected offer?
Tommy Brant: Yeah. And so the purchase price was 4.1 million for 52, and so that’s around 78, 8 a door. And definitely it’s not Dallas prices where you got to pay 150 or 200 door, you know, or anything like that, but, and so it was very reasonable for the rent that we were targeting for projections per door on that one.
And so we offered full price. This was one of those things where you can envision the broker interaction to the seller going like, Broker says to the seller, what would it take to sell your property? You know, seller says , if you can get 4.1, I’ll sell this. And so I, we didn’t wanna play hardball.
Our numbers worked even at 4.1, like really well actually. And so we wanted to leave some room for concessions in case there was any issues along the way. And fast forward we did the physical inspections and there was about $150,000 worth of cell floor damage to most of the buildings, if not all that we had to talk about.
And they were open to crediting back at closing although they just didn’t really like it. Honestly. They kind of taken aback, but it was mostly because of the disconnect they had with the property manager. This kind of gets into some of the red flags associated with this deal. So the person that bought it was an individual that was out of state.
They didn’t have local boots on the ground, and the property management franchise hired a tenant to care for the property.
Aileen Prak: Oh, the property manager hired a tenant as an employee to manage the property?
Tommy Brant: Yes.
Aileen Prak: Okay.
Tommy Brant: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And so just as a way because they know the inner workings of the property, they know the culture that’s there.
They could probably navigate any and all issues that come up. Like that was blue sky thinking from the property management franchise, and you can see why they would make that decision. But they weren’t that communicative about what was going on, what we were seeing with some of the damage to the entryways and things like that.
Some of the handrails had a lot of ballast that needed to be replaced or just the entire decking needed to be replaced, stuff of that sort. And so where things really started to fall apart was whenever we looked at the accounting side of things, was around the delinquencies. And I think generally if you’re looking at something and, and you see some five figure number of delinquencies, you’re like, okay, like.
This is concerning. This had six figure delinquencies on this one. And so there’s $127,000 in outstanding rent for a 52 unit. That’s basically half the complex, and unpaid rent. And so we’re digging into it a little bit deeper. We find out while we’re under contract, I say we like collectively like me, the broker, the seller, find out collectively that the sensor was a tenant that’s hired to be on the property. You know, they missed a rent payment. They find out they’re not getting audited. There’s no bank recs coming from the franchise in Nashville, and now it’s just like, okay, well if I missed a month’s payment, let me just kind of give myself leeway and maybe not pay the next month. And then they hammer wasn’t coming down on them. And then they started coaching their friends, their roommates, all their friends throughout the complex of, you guys don’t need to pay.
Aileen Prak: And they had the inside track.
Tommy Brant: Yeah, yeah.
Just give me a check and I won’t cash it. And so that just got ramped and went on for probably about the better part of a year. And so we brought the lender up to speed and that took our 80% loan to cost down to 60% loan to value. And now we start having hard discussions, making hard decisions.
We bring everyone up to speed, the broker knows, the property manager knows, and we’re just like, what are our options here? Right, because it’s not like we couldn’t close, but it’s just like we wanted to syndicate that deal. And so it’s just like, do we have the confidence if we’re using other people’s money into this, right?
I, if it was my money, I have a different risk tolerance, but as soon as I take $1 of someone else’s money into an opportunity like this, like your risk tolerance has to change. Right. If you’re truly a good steward of other people’s money, like you have that fiduciary responsibility and it’s just like, I now have wavering confidence in this.
And so we’re like, what options do we have? So options is we close it, 60% loan to value, we raise more capital, our returns go down. It’s still within the spectrum of what we want for underwriting for 15 to 20% annualized returns. There’s still a way that we can make that work. But then it’s just like we were probably looking at like nine months worth of evictions.
Just given the process and the turnover. And some people had applied for housing assistance programs and we couldn’t evict anyone until we got the results from the housing assistance programs. And we weren’t sure how long the results to come. Like there’s all these things where it’s just like, all right, turning over the tenants is not gonna be a quick and easy process, even though we know it’s a bandaid we’d need to rip off.
And so that’s option one. As we close and just suffer through it, we delay payouts for probably 12 months. Option two, I think you have experiences. We do a master lease option with a purchase, a master lease with option to buy. And we had a couple concerns with that in general, just because there are two things. So one thing was if we did a master lease with option to buy, we would need some sort of capital injection to do all these repairs that we wouldn’t have gotten because there was no formal transaction. So there’s no closing, there’s no raising capital. So we probably would’ve had to take a private loan to implement our business plan and get the funds to not terrible. There’s a way to navigate that, not the end of the world.
The other option too was just like, we didn’t really know the guy. He didn’t have a lot of commitments to us.
Aileen Prak: The seller?
Tommy Brant: Right, right, right, right. And so we hadn’t really done business together. And so God forbid that, he gets hit by a bus and now it trickles down to the estate. And the kids are like, no, I don’t wanna sell this.
This is a great looking asset. And then we start having to take litigious action, we’re going through like negative visualization, like what are all the worst case scenarios that are happening? Am I comfortable with these things happening? And then the third option was we just canceled the deal.
Ideally, the issues with the rents and delinquencies would’ve been reflected in the purchase price if the seller truly was willing to transact the property, but we caught wind that he had syndicated the deal. So you’re kind of forced to not move a whole lot, right? If I am going to sell this asset, it needs to be here so I can meet extra returns for my investors.
I argue he should have lost money for his investors, and that one, but he would’ve been the only one that I know of in the past 10 year that’s done that. At any rate, we ended up canceling contract. There’s a couple of reflections on that now. One of them is, it really got me thinking about hard money, like non-refundable earnest money.
We didn’t have to do that. I think the only money that we lost, a total was like 500 bucks, and that was from the inspection report. Just because we’re planning on doing more properties as a team, and so our syndication fees are gonna roll forward into the next deal that we do, $500 for tuition. We’ll call that, but also we didn’t do non-refundable earnest money on this one, but that was rampant the past year. Especially in highly desirable markets, very competitive environments. People are putting like 2%, 3% of purchase price and non-refundable earnest money before they’ve even inspected the property.
And if we would’ve done this, we would’ve been out. 40 up to $120,000 because we didn’t want to do this because of accounting. It had nothing to do with the property. It was the management side of things. But if I would’ve known more about the operator and what was their team look like, did they implement any business plan that would’ve weighed into whether or not I want to even pursue this property with non-refundable earnest money or hard money?
So that was my take away, my big lesson learned had nothing to do with the transaction of the circumstance of this one, but it’s just like it got me thinking of way differently about hard money and when I’m willing to put it forward. Because what I see all the time is when they get a listing from a broker and they say, wow, I really like this property. I’m gonna put this offer together. And they know nothing about the ownership team.
We had an inspector on this deal, which was ironically the same inspector that inspected it two years ago when they sold it to the previous ownership group, and he said nothing’s changed. I can even give you a discount on the inspection report because it’s just going to be the same feedback, the same recommendations.
And so that tells us that he didn’t implement any sort of business plan. We already knew he didn’t have boots on the ground because he didn’t know what was going on at the property. And so it’s just like red flag, red flag, red flag.
Aileen Prak: Did you and your team have have direct contact with the seller when you found out all the accounting discrepancies? Did all the communication go through the broker and did the broker relate to the seller? Was he aware of what was going on?
Tommy Brant: He was made aware effectively, but we actually had first and last name, but we didn’t bother reaching out to him just because we wanted to really respect the broker relationship that we had because we wouldn’t have even even been talking if it wasn’t for the broker.
So we kept everything at arm’s distance and she represented him well, I suspect she represented us well.
Aileen Prak: Fantastic and so you made the hard decision. After evaluating all the different opportunities out there, what would be the most cautious and the best choice for you and your team to end up walking away from this deal?
Tommy Brant: For sure, and I think if it would’ve been a joint venture, we might have had the appetite for risk, but we had two veterans on our team and they were like, six months from now you’re gonna be in two or three different deals and they’re gonna be going easy. You know they’re gonna be a piece of cake, and then you’re still gonna be running through the mud in this one.
Them being able to uncloud my judgment and take the emotion out of things was super critical.
Aileen Prak: Yeah, no, definitely. You definitely need to take out the emotions because it’s based off of what the numbers look like, and just because we love the property, sometimes the business plan and the headaches that come along with it are not worth what you’re paying for this. So you got to take a balance of what you’re willing to put in and what you’re willing to accept as you come out of it as well.
Tommy Brant: For sure. It’s definitely like 95% numbers. And then the question they kept bringing up, what’s your return on effort? How much are you having to commit? How many calories do you need to put into this thing?
Cognitive or physical? Well I’ll probably lose sleep over stuff happening and us being 60% occupancy, some months, that would consume me. I’m sure.
Aileen Prak: So tell me what is next for you and your team, because since then you are now, you mentioned, you know, you’re working on some other deals now you found some other ones that actually panned out that may not require as much of a headache for you guys and your team. So what’s next for you guys?
Tommy Brant: It’s gonna be more the same. But I think one thing that’s kind of come out of all of this is, opportunity may not look like I’m always wanting it to. I think my partner and I we’re open to self storage, so we’ve been doing direct to seller marketing for apartments and we’ve gotten pretty good returns there. There’s another gentleman in our private mastermind group who does wholesaling and he is pivoting from residential to commercial, so I think we’ll probably do some more mailing campaigns. So really just kind of batting down the hatches with regards to the director seller of apartment owners, but that’s their timeline. That’s not mine.
It’s like once you get everything up and running, it’s a little bit like watching paint dry, you know? It’s kind of the reality of it. And so what I think that we’re gonna pivot to at the turn of the year is direct to seller for storage facilities as well. And so we had some experience earlier this year with a storage facility in Middle Tennessee as well, just knowing the systems processes that goes into that, into self-managing versus having property management.
It’s encouraging, right? I think, you know, we have the frame of reference that multifamily is a hedge against inflation because there’s short term leases. Being a year long and so, but on the self storage side, they have even shorter term leases. They’re month to month operations. So we’re considering that we’re actually been looking at a few here and there for self-storage already.
Aileen Prak: So tell me, how has real estate investing impacted your life?
Tommy Brant: For me, there’s a couple of freedoms, right? So there’s the geography freedom, time freedom, people freedom, and it’s hanging out with who you want to hang out with, where you want to hang out with them, when you want to hang out with them, and then not being burdened financially along the way.
And so most important for me right now is geography freedom. I love the flexibility. My wife and I, we actually went to Cambodia earlier this year in August and I was running the Airbnb. We were still putting out LOIs, we were having team huddles. It was at about 3:00 AM for me because of the time difference but I’m still able to operate, real estate businesses and that’s really most attractive to me at this point.
Aileen Prak: Do you guys get to go visit like Angkor Wat and the capital?
Tommy Brant: Yeah, the Phnom Penh, Siem Reap. We went to Battambang and Mondulkiri, the coffee capital of Cambodia.
Aileen Prak: Oh yeah. Pretty good. Yeah, very good accent there because my family’s Cambodian, Chinese, Cambodian, and so I’m like, oh, yeah you’re pretty good.
Tommy Brant: Gotcha. My wife is Chinese, Cambodian, so it was a family trip for us.
Aileen Prak: Oh, that’s so fun.
Tommy Brant: Yeah. I’ll tell you. Well, I’ll have to talk offline. I don’t wanna consume the podcast there.
Aileen Prak: So tell me, what is the one thing that you know now about real estate that you wish you knew when you first started?
Tommy Brant: For me, it’s that I can’t do it alone, right? If I would’ve leaned harder into building teams and trusting people sooner, I would’ve been able to go further.
Aileen Prak: If there was one thing that sets the successful people apart in real estate investing, what would that be?
Tommy Brant: Never give up. There’s the people that say success is on the other side of fear or success is on the other side of failure. In school, we’re bred to be averse to failing, right? Or you got this wrong. Here’s a big red X, and we’re kind of terrified of seeing a big red X on our anything we do in our adult life too. But really we should be embracing failure, right? It’s to say, all right, if I failed at this, I only really failed if I didn’t learn anything.
Aileen Prak: Awesome.
Tommy Brant: Just a short story if that’s okay.
Aileen Prak: Yes.
Tommy Brant: I went to a conference last week and they interviewed George Ross, he was Donald Trump’s attorney for 40 years, and he said, what do you think Donald Trump learned the most in his successes or his failures?
He said, Donald Trump didn’t learn anything in his successes. He said, I’ll tell you what I learned in my failures. And he just kind. So it’s like if you’re not failing, you’re not learning. And if you’re winning all the time, you’re probably not learning either.
Aileen Prak: Tommy, where can our listeners find out more about you and follow your story?
Tommy Brant: For sure, for sure. I definitely have a gift for everyone.
Aileen Prak: We love gifts.
Tommy Brant: Yes, free stuff! You can look me up on LinkedIn and Facebook. That’s Tommy Brant, B-R-A-N-T as in Tommy. And TBcapital group.com is where I host all of my resources. And if you go there, then you’ll find that there’s a passive investor’s guide to the multifamily universe.
I’m not monetizing that, that’s just kind of my free share to anyone that’s interested in learning more about the ecosystem, why multifamily has a bright outlook, how it compares with other asset classes in commercial, and then the kind of a one-on-one for multifamily.
Aileen Prak: Awesome. Thank you so much, Tommy. I really appreciate it.
Tommy Brant: For sure. It was a blast. Aileen, thanks for you so much for having me.
Aileen Prak: Thank you.